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Salient: Victoria University of Wellington Students' Newspaper. Vol. 32, No. 9. 1969.

The Cross-Examination of a Security Officer

page 5

The Cross-Examination of a Security Officer

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How did you come to be involved in the Security Service?

Well, I was in the Army, you know, and after Che Seato Pact was signed, I heard that a new Security organisation was being formed and I knew someone who joined. The whole thing was reformed in 1956, and we took over a lot of the old "Special Branch" staff. My Army training came in useful, clean boots, closed ranks, night operations, searching out the enemy—that son of thing. The training was fun too—a lot of it was done with the Americans. In 1956-57 the CIA Director of Plans visited here to advise us. There was also close contact—there still is for that matter—with MIS (the British Security organisation), and ASIO (the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation). A lot of our training is done together, and we co-operate together against the international Communist conspiracy. We have our conspiracy too!

Do you exchange information?

Oh yes. We tell the South African Security Organisation who is involved in the anti-South African tour movement—we've stopped dozens of people getting into South Africa that way We co-operate with the CIA people here, share files, that sort of thing; share "checking" of New Zealanders applying for American visas. We've stopped quite a few left-wingers that way; got scholarships withdrawn.

On what grounds?

Communism, or belonging to left-wing organisations—things like the USSR Society, China Society, Committee on Vietnam, Asian Studies Club. We also take movie and still photographs of everyone who takes part in demonstrations. As well as checking 18,000 people every year for "sensitive" jobs we get files on probably double that number. We've got files on over 600,000 people now. That's why we needed such a big building in Taranaki Street. To keep all the files. Of course we have offices in all the main centres too—Christchurch, Auckland, Dunedin. Got quite a few staff—nearly 90. But it'll still be quite a small Government department when we become separate.

What about the Universities?

They're hot beds of communism; why in the 1940s and 1950s there was even a Communist Party branch at Victoria University, the worst of them all. But we've stamped that open kind of activity out.

How did yon do it?

Well, at Victoria we put one of our best agents on to the job of infiltrating the Communist Party branch.

How many people were in the branch?

Fifteen real ones, but hundreds more sympathisers

You mean that they were a real threat; how?

Fifteen dedicated subversives can be very powerful. I mean men like Conrad Bollinger; they can persaude people to accept their atheistic views—they know how to speak publicly, and write. At Victoria they were they powerful, passing motions in the Students' Association and everything But we had them tabbed. None of them got into the Civil Service. We saw to that, and if we knew they were applying for certain jobs we went along to the boss and told him they were Communists Although I wasn't here then, in 1953 we made a prominent Wellington accounting firm sack a junior clerk because he was involved in putting out a life-wing student paper.

What was he doing?

Oh, he wasn't writing for the paper, he just looked after subscriptions.

What happened to the agent employed at Victoria?

Well we got all sorts of interesting information from him. He stayed in the home of a prominent Communist, masquerading as a friend He took recordings of all conversations which took place in this house, and of course the phone was tapped. All the information was put in the personal Security files of the people involved of course. This agent was also sent to spy on left-wing members of the staff at Rungotai College in Wellington. But although he got some very good information on some members we weren't able to stop a very prominent left-winger becoming President of the Post Primary Teachers' Association in recent years. We did our best to stop this, but the trouble is all these Teacher, student and union organisations are ruled by sympathisers. They don't listen much to us This agent eventually gol exposed. We were frightened the Communists would kill him or that he'd be kidnapped by the Soviets. We had to dispose of his services.

What did you do?

Well we paid him compensation; this was hidden in the Estimates, and we gave him a one-way airfare to the USA and a recommendation to the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) for employment.

How did you pay for the air fare?

Oh we get a certain number each year from the CIA and FBI for our agents to attend courses in the USA on counterespionage work.

Did this agent get his CIA job?

No, he didn't. In fact it was all very embarrassing because he came back and wanted more compensation than we'd given him. We told him if he stayed here he'd get killed by the Communists, but he stayed on and took his case to the Ombudsman. Sir Guy refused to give him any more money, so this ex-agent went to his friends at Truth. (Of course in our job we know them fairly well. We do them favours and they publish certain articles for us when we want). Anyway the Truth story blew-up and all the Communists found out what had been going on. But by then we had all the information we wanted and they couldn't do much. We got this agent a job on a Hawke's Bay paper, where he's now got quite a senior position.

You've made a few serious slip-ups at Communist Party Conferences haven't you?

Not really, I mean they're only found our microphones and recording equipment twice haven't they? In 1960 and 1965, that's not a bad record. And we've done some valuable things too. We followed Rewi Alley all round Auckland when he was here a few years ago. Really frightened him and his mates like that arch-conspirator Professor Willis Airey. He poisoned the minds of thousands of students at Auckland University. Teaching about Chinese history and things like that. Those little slit-eyed yellow bastards are so primitive they haven't got any history.

What else did you do to Rewi Alley?

Well, our boys and the CIA got on the same plane when he was going back to China. Followed him all the way. Then just out of Hong Kong one of our best agents walked up the plane aisle and put a poison-pin in his sleeve. Inside his elbow so when he moved his arm it would go inside. Just like that! They re meant to kill without any clue, when they go in. But old Rewi Alley didn't die. Nearly though; it was written up as a heart-attack. The Chinese doctors couldn't tell what it was; initially they thought it was a heart attack as the plane descended into Hong Kong, but then they found the puncture in the skin where the needle had gone in Of course our agent had got the pin back in all the confusion. When the old boy had collapsed in the plane. It was a wellplanned operation—a pity it didn't come off.

Looking back on the Godfrey affair at Auckland University, in 1967, how do you think the Security Service came out—was its image damaged?

Those damned students nearly wrecked us. They victimised David Godfrey and we had to pay him $12,000 as well as find him another job. They also exposed one of our best student agents ———. He was very valuable because he was the elected Public Relations Officer of the Students' Association. He also reported student meetings for student newspapers and kept us advised of what was going on. Student agents like this one are very valuable. But the left-wing —— on the staff keep inciting the students. Particularly Political Science Department people.

What started off the Godfrey affair?

The Russians. Trying to subvert New Zealand students.

Who were the Russians?

Two espionage agents.

But I thought one was a member of the Soviet Youth Council and the other a representative of the Soviet Youth Travel Agency and they were here trying to arrange a tour of Russia for New Zealand students. Also I understand that they had the right visas, had been checked by the External Affairs Department and had been in New Zealand for 10 days before the Security Service found out about them?

That may well be. But we don't want to encourage New Zealand students to go in Communist countries. We've got a good way of life here and we don't want it changed by strange called "intellectuals" going away and coming back with strange ideas. We've had enough of that. We don't want them encouraging the Russians or Chinese to come here. I don'l want my daughter to marry a Chinese or a Russian. They're not like us.

Why didn't you tell Mr Holyoake then that New Zealand shouldn't be allowed to visit China in 1967?

We did, but he wouldn't listen. He said we couldn't be the same as the Americans and not let New Zealanders into Russia. But we tried to stop individual students from going; ringing them up and that sort of thing

What happened when the students came back from China?

We interviewed some of them, we even got the leader of the NZ Group up to Wellington for a talk about China We got the names of all the New Zealanders in China, that sort of thing. And we found out what was happening in China.

Don't you have any other way?

Oh yes, we listen to Radio Peking to hear what they're instrutting the local Communist Party to do. A former JIB man went to China in 1968 also, as part of an Australian student group.

Do you believe in academic freedom?

What's that As I see it those who push the term are just c——t sympathisers and converts. It's an excuse to say what they like. They use it to push good New Zealand citizens like David Godfrey and —— out of the universities. What right have students and lecturers to find out about our build ing and come marching down here? We have rights too you know! But we'll show them! Last year we did—you know that left-wing c——t Ian Milner? They tried to bring him to New Zealand from Czechoslovakia to lecture at our universitys, to subvert our young people to the Communist way of life.

But Milner is a New Zealander, a Rhodes scholar, an eminent authority on English, why shouldn't he come here?

But he was involved in the Petrov affair!

What evidence do you have for that?

Well, ah ... ah ... he was involved.

As I understand it he was cleared of any suspicion be the in vestigating Commission and his statement denying any involvement was printed in most New Zealand papers at the time.

I don't care—he's dangerous and we stopped him coming here!

How?

Firstly we rang that radical Professor Chapman in the Auckland University Politics Department. He was our main opposition in the Godfrey affair We thought Milner was coming to his department to lecture but Chapman denied it. We couldn't find where Milner was coming to, so we gave the story to Truth—you know, all the Petrov affair and that sort of stuff. Very effective. Then we rang some people at Canterbury and Auckland Universities and told them some more details. They got the invitation to Milner withdrawn, and he wasn't able to come. We stopped him.