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Discussion on Mr. Hamilton's Paper.

Sir Julius Vogel said lie was sure that Mr. Hamilton's paper had been listened to with a great deal of pleasure by those who were interested in the colony, although he did not mean to say that all the statements in it would be concurred in. He was glad to be allowed to make a few remarks about it. It was not until 1869 that the soldiers were actually taken away from the colony, although since 18C3 such a step was threatened. At the time of the removal native affairs were very gloomy, and the Government viewed with alarm the determination to carry it into effect. Since then native affairs have occupied much attention, and at times occasioned great anxiety. No doubt the public works policy had materially aided in reconciling the natives to European rule, but to Sir Donald McLean's patience, immense personal influence and exquisite tact, were in his (Sir J. Vogel's) opinion, mainly to be attributed the fact that for the first time in the history of the colony, native affairs had ceased to be the all absorbing subject, and leisure and freedom were afforded to deal with questions of colonisation. He much regretted the reference Mr. Hamilton had made to the provinces. Besides that, he recognised the good old maxim de mortuis nil nisi bonum. It was far from the case that they were responsible in the way Mr. Hamilton supposed for the railways being carried out simultaneously from several points. Any other plan would have defeated its own ends. The provinces had done good work in the past, and although the need for their existence ceased to be, their services should not be forgotten. Now that the abolition was completed, it was gratifying to think that the organic change in the constitution had not been made without much argument and consideration. To have lightly altered the constitution would have shown that it had not deeply sunk into the hearts of the people. He could not admit the justice of all Mr. Hamilton's comparisons. To his mind a comparison of the debt incurred for war purposes with the debt incurred for large public reproductive works had no meaning. If he attached importance to the figures, he might point out that in including the last-issued loan in the amount negotiated up to the end of June, Mr. Hamilton had omitted to bear in mind that at least a half-million of it, besides the 800,000l. guaranteed debentures, should not have been included as expended. With all due respect to the Society, he must say that it was quite possible for statistics to represent a mass of figures without appealing to any sympathy or intelligence from which a comparison could be instituted. He could not understand what was to be gathered from the fact of a nominal amount per head of a public debt. He agreed with Mr. Dudley Baxter, who had put upon record that the only true way of ascertaining the incidence of public debt was by comparing it with the ability of the population to pay it. He could conceive page 36 that there were many peoples and countries that were able to bear a nominal amount of taxation far in excess of the taxation which would be most burdensome to another country where the earnings were smaller. He rather inclined to the opinion that the very heavy taxation in the United States pressed much less burthen-somely upon the settled population, than the very light taxation of this country upon the working population; and he was quite certain that if the taxation of New Zealand went up to a large amount the population would be much better able to pay it than the working men of this country were able to pay the ordinary taxation. When the expenditure upon railways was compared with the expenditure upon war, what did it mean? Supposing any one were to say "I have spent twice as much money this year as last. Last year I spent 500l. in a law suit which brought me in nothing whatever, and this year I spent 1,000l, in improving my estate; hence I have been more extravagant this year than last." What would be thought of such a statement? Mr. Dudley Baxter had said—and he thought there were many that would entirely agree with him—in giving information of a most imperfect kind as to the earnings of the peoples of different countries, that although such information was founded on a mere approximate estimate, it gave a far truer idea of the real burden of the debt of a country than the most accurate figures. Then came the question as to what importance was to be attached to the fact of the New Zealand loans not being quoted so high as those of other countries. His opinion was that the circumstances which ruled the prices of the stock exchange were entirely independent of the conditions upon which the money was spent within the colony. The quotations from day to day of the stock exchange were not criteria of value, but of the amount of stock in the hands of wholesale dealers. As a matter of fact, all the loans of the constitutional colonies were undeniably secured. They were first charges on the revenue. Neither the governor nor the audit department would allow the annual votes to be defrayed until the permanent charges were paid. Besides, not only were the unsold lands security, but the sold lands could be reached by taxation. Fluctuations in the value of a security on the stock exchange did not necessarily follow the prosperity or depression of a colony. For instance, New Zealand securities had gone up 2 per cent, within the last nine weeks, but he was not aware the country had made any particular stride in that time. The question of immigration was, he thought, one of vast interest. His own attention was called to it in 1868, by reading a most interesting work by Sir Morton Peto upon the resources of America, and when he studied the wonderful results of immigration to the United States, it seemed to him that a new country could not make too great a sacrifice for the purpose of increasing its population. He had jotted down a few of the facts. In 1800 the population of the United States was only 5,300,000, and in 1860 it had increased to 31,400,000. Two-thirds of the population up to 1860 were immigrants and descendants of immigrants, and yet, astonishing to relate, the total number of immigrants was only 5,200,000, who had multiplied to 21,000,000. Of the number page 37 of immigrants 3,000,000 arrived between 1849 and 1860. In 1800 the population of the United Kingdom was 16,000.000, and in 1860 it had not doubled. In considering the amount of debt of the United Kingdom and New Zealand respectively, it should be remembered the comparison was between a country whose population had not doubled within sixty years, and one whose population had doubled in ten years. It had been computed that at the same rate of progression as in the United Kingdom, in 1860 the population of the United States would only have been 10,000,000 instead of 31,000,000. When he saw those wonderful results, it suggested a great deal to his mind and the minds of those who were acting with him. Mr. Hamilton had expressed some doubt as to how the value of an emigrant was to be obtained. It could best be arrived at, he thought, by estimating what was the amount of his earnings, and that would be a complicated affair. He thought that that cost of producing an emigrant might be, at any rate, arrived at by considering what the emigrant had to go through before he arrived at the age of twenty. A German philosopher had devoted a great deal of attention to the subject, and he had estimated the value of an adult at 200/., which, he thought, was within the mark. In reference to the question as to whether the New Zealand immigration had been successful, he thought it was not possible to conceive a more profitable occupation in the case of a new country than introducing immigrants at 20l, per head, who were worth more than that sum to the country per annun. In respect to New Zealand, it was found that in the four years ending 1875, during which the immigration had been conducted on a large scale, the immigrants who paid their own passages exceeded the number of emigrants by 11,400, and this was in addition to the 65,000 persons whose passages had been assisted, showing that over and above the immigrants introduced by the Government, there was an excess of arrivals of those who pad their own passages over those who left the colony. The policy of public works was not to provide work to immigrants for the mere sake of keeping them, but to enter upon such works as would enlarge the scope of private enterprise by giving a market to the produce of land hitherto cut off from communication. They hardy conceived what the value of the land was, or they would not douit the policy of opening it up. The following data had been given [unclear: to] him by colonists at present in this country:—

"Two thousand and ninety-four acres of land were purchased about 1871 at 2l, an acre—when a railway was not opened within eighteen miles. The land was sold in 1876 in thirty-five lots it an average per acre of 9l. 6s. The railway then ran past it.

"Four thousand, seven hundred and seventy-four acres were bought in June, 1873, at 2I.—about 10s. an acre was spent on it. It was sold in July, 1876, at 5l. 5s. an acre. Three months after the purchase nearly every acre was ploughed. There were twenty double-furrowed ploughs at work. Railway not within 60 miles when purchased. When sold open within 8 miles.

Six thousand acres within 16 miles of Timaru let to contractors for one crop (the land being in its natural state) yield page 38 50 and 55 bushels of wheat per acre—this wheat, if sold by the contractors early in the season, that is shortly after harvest, would have brought 3s. 3d and 3s. 9d. per bushel in Timaru. As the year went on, prices rose, and by last advices, wheat being scarce, was sold at 5s. and 5s. 3d., but this price may be considered exceptional. Farmers, as a rule, may calculate upon receiving 3s. 3l. and 3s. 6d. immediately after harvest in such districts as Timaru; in the Oamaru district, from its proximity to Dunedin and a more populous district, prices rule about 6s. per bushel above Timaru.

"The contractors in the Timaru district have the land for one crop, according to situation of land. Some they get rent free, and pay, in some cases, 5s. and 10s. and 15s. per acre. The landlord fences the land, and provides grass seeds where grass is sown with the wheat.

"The cost of producing wheat, say from breaking up of the land to delivery of wheat at a port is about 4l. per acre, that is provided the proprietor of the land does it on his own account, and employs labour by contract—contractors who take the land for one crop having the labour within themselves, of course can do it much cheaper for themselves. The profitable result to contractors during the last two or three years has increased the demand for land on the cropping system, and they can afford to pay 5s. and 15s. rent, and make a good profit—15s. is being paid by contractors this year for land in the Waikato district, in the Otago provinces, 30 miles from Oamaru."

There was no extravagance in constructing railways to open up land like this. It was an essential part of the policy of the Government to settle the north island, and if what Mr. Hamilton had suggested had been done, namely, constructing the railways one by one, instead of carrying out that policy, the population of the north island would have been drained. As Mr. Hamilton had said, the natives had responded to their friendship, and had accepted with pleasure the policy of peace instead of the policy of war. It had often been stated that if left to themselves the colonists would be cruel to the natives. Their reply was the money spent on roads and railways this decade against that spent on wars the last decade. It was a policy of public works and settlement against one of fire and sword—a policy of saving life instead of destroying it. Let those who were ready to censure the colonists take these facts to heart. People were all more or less swayed by surrounding influences, and Mr. Hamilton, though he had most ably and conclusively defended the colony, had not at the last the courage of his opinions, but to some extent censured the Government he had so ably vindicated. Let them remember this, that in deciding on the policy they adopted, the colonists had everything in their favour. The people were educated to a far greater extent than the mass of the people in this country. The climate of the colony was splendid, its lands of vast productive power; it did not suffer from droughts; it was a country capable of supporting millions. The labouring men of this country found in it a great relief. There they had easy hours, plenty of food, and, above all, a career open to their children. Thousands of persons in happy page 39 homes, whose lives would otherwise have been miserable, were ready to justify the policy of the colonists. And, after all, what had the colonists to justify? That they asked British capitalists for money on good security to spend on reproductive works, instead of asking the British taxpayer to contribute to the cost of wretched wars.

Mr. Prance said he had perhaps more knowledge than most others in the room, and he would in the first place reply to the question raised as to why the credit of New Zealand on the London Stock Exchange was not equal to that of other colonial loans, such as for instance New South Wales. The answer was, that the colony has raised money at high rates because they had thrown too much stock on the market. He had no doubt that in a few years' time New Zealand would earn on its railways as much per cent, as the New South Wales railways earned, viz., 4 per cent.; but at the present moment it was a fact that the money raised by New Zealand did not bring in to the colony an equal amount of profit as the money raised by New South Wales, Victoria, or others of the South Australian colonies. He believed that ere long the superior climate and soil, with the influx of so many emigrants from Great Britain, would have the effect of making New Zealand the foremost of British colonies.

Mr. Samuel Hill wished to call attention to the amount invested in savings banks, to which no allusion had been made. He found that the amount thus invested amounted, in New Zealand, to 2I. 5s. per head of population. Of course this was less than the amount of charge on the public debt; but it must not be forgotten that a degree of thrift and frugality would have to be exercised in order to accumulate such a sum. The question of education was a very important one, especially when there was a school attendance of no less than 45,562. He thought that the elementary school system of the mother country had been introduced to New Zealand with very considerable profit and advantage. He hoped that the day was as far distant when the last of the Maoris would have left New Zealand, as he believed it would be when the prophecy would be fulfilled as to the New Zealander surveying the ruins of London Bridge. Speaking of hospital accommodation, he said that it would be found that in New Zealand there were 931 beds to a population of 400,000, or one bed to every 429. Taking the population of the metropolis at 4,000,000, it would be found that in the same proportion there would be 9,302 beds. He must say that he did not find anything like that number. He deprecated the small amount of accommodation in the New Zealand hospitals that was provided for children, and hoped that if ever the ex-premier returned to the colony he would give this matter his attention.

The Rev. Mr. Doxsey said he wished to call attention to an interesting subject which Mr. Hamilton, from want of time, had omitted, namely the price of products. It was not more important to know what colonists earned than what they were obliged to spend. He had assisted a poor family to emigrate to New Zealand page 40 to better their condition, and from a letter received from them since, he had learned that a whole sheep could be purchased in the district where they lived for 4s.; but in one of the tables accompanying the paper the price of mutton was 3d. a pound, so that there was a great difference between the two. But even from the tables it would be seen that New Zealand was a much cheaper place to live in than England; and if people could earn greater wages than in England and live at less cost, the colonies would be able to bear a larger amount of expenditure than the mother country would. It would, however, be seen from the tables, that in the colony various articles of produce, such as butter and milk, were very expensive, but if such a commodity as pure milk was sold at 4d. a quart—the same price as it was said to be in New Zealand—the price would be more remunerative to the New Zealand farmer, who paid less for his land than was paid in England. He wished to know if Mr. Hamilton's tables could be relied on, and also further information as to the real amount a family expended, as well as what they could earn.

Dr. Guy thought that Sir Julius Vogel had put the value of an emigrant at a very low figure. He thought the value would be nearer 400l. than 200l.; and when it was remembered that an emigrant in his adopted country married and became the father of children who, in their turn, had families, it was difficult to say what the true value of an emigrant was. This was so interesting a point, that he hoped some member of the Society would on some future occasion read a paper on the value of the emigrant as he was sent out.

Sir James Fergusson, Bart., K.C.M.G., said that having been in New Zealand, and having watched the progress of Sir Julius Vogel's policy, he rejoiced that that evening there had come from an impartial source so intelligent and instructive an exposition of the fruits of that policy. As to the value of the emigrant, it was quite true that the mother country was in one point of view a loser by his departure from its shores; but emigrants were by no means lost to the mother country, because they became consumers of its manufactures and produce to an extent which it was impossible to estimate. It had been said over and over again lately, that the trade of the Australian colonies now amounted to 90,000,000l. sterling a-year, which was only to be accounted for by the enormous advantages enjoyed by those who had transferred their fortunes to the other side of the world, and who became larger consumers of the produce of the mother country than they would have been at home. Even in this narrow point of view the country was a great gainer by the transfer of its surplus population to the shores of another country. Sir Julius vogel had pointed out, with a degree of justice that could not be gainsaid, that the paper hardly did the colony justice. It was one of the great advantages possessed by New Zealand over the Australian colonies, that whereas each of the latter had been colonised for the most part from one great centre, New Zealand bad been colonised from various points, so page 41 that the distribution of population and wealth had been more rapid. In New Zealand it was found that every link of line opened from any one town began immediately to pay, when in this country it would not have been thought worth while opening it. One of the speakers in giving his reasons why the New Zealand investments had ceased to be popular, omitted to notice that many of the large public works were only in progress: in fact a great proportion of the capital employed had not become remunerative. It was most unfair to gauge the reproductive power of public works by their returns when they were only half finished. In this country the interest of money was always added to capital until the railway was opened. The fact was that they must look forward to some years hence, and take the great results already yielded as an earnest of that which was to come. Mr. Hamilton had pointed out that in estimating the application of the debt to New Zealand, it was fair to estimate it by the application of similar funds in this country; but whereas in England the national debt is applied to very few purposes, in New Zealand all public works, the telegraphs included, were constructed by its means. In fact in these new countries the private means of the inhabitants were applied to the development of the country itself, and to the properties which they possessed. They could not afford to subscribe even for the ends which were so necessary for their own profit as means of communication. These things were all done in new countries by the Governments, and even in America by the several States, which gave such enormous benefactions of land, proving so valuable to the railways. Mr. Hamilton might also have pointed out that not only the railways and telegraphs had been made out of the loans, but also the roads; and when he left New Zealand about a year and a half ago, if he remembered rightly, 2,000 miles of road had been constructed out of the produce of these loans. If the amount spent in the mother country in making the turnpike roads were added to the amount spent on railways and telegraphs, the two amounts would be altogether reversed. It was unfortunate that New Zealand securities were for the moment depressed; but he ventured to say this was the result of ignorance on the part of the British public as to the real working policy of New Zealand. There was something like unfairness in the statements made by some persons in this country, who had not yet rid themselves of the political animosity which they brought from other ends of the world. No doubt when those gentlemen left New Zealand the public works' policy had not become so completely justified as it was now. Very plausible statements had been made, but made in such a manner as to produce a very injurious effect upon New Zealand securities. Two or three weeks ago he read a statement in a leading article in the "Times" which, if it had been made with full knowledge of the circumstances, he would really characterise as malignan. A most flourishing city in New Zealand—the city of Christchurch—asked for its first municipal loan for a work which was eminenty calculated to be a public advantage, and for which ample security was provided. This was announced in the city article of the page 42 "Times" with some such sneering remark as that people had lately heard too much about New Zealand. What would be said about the proposal for an investment in the making of a railway in a rich district in the south of England being met by a statement that too much money had been borrowed in the north of Scotland? Because Dunedin and other towns had borrowed money for their requirements, should that depreciate a loan asked for by Christ-church? That was a specimen of the reasons why New Zealand securities were depressed in the market. He hoped and believed that the administration of New Zealand was determined to exercise the great policy of economy and prudence, and to limit their expenditure to what the country really required.

Dr. Farr said he felt greatly indebted to Mr. Hamilton for bis model paper, but he was sorry that the discussion had degenerated into a Stock Exchange discussion. People in this country must all take a deep interest in New Zealand, and wish that colony every kind of success. What he admired in Mr. Hamilton was his great impartiality; and if New Zealand held its own and acted, as Mr. Hamilton recommended it—with prudence—they would receive from this country all the loans they required. In the Society's Journal^* there was a valuation made of an English labourer in Suffolk. The value of the baby was reckoned at 5l., and the value increased until it reached, at the age of 25, 246l. He agreed with Sir Julius Vogel, that it should be the policy of the colonies to endeavour to induce a good class of Englishmen to go and live in them. As Dr. Guy had pointed out, it was not only a man and his family that had to be taken into account; there was a perpetual succession of men. The most important export this country had given to the world was its men, which would, no doubt, contribute much to the advantage of the world in future ages.

In answer to a question,

Dr. Farr said, that the estimate he had referred to of the value of a man was made in 1853, but no doubt it was much higher now. An admirable work Sir Julius Vogel had done was to remove some of the agricultural labourers from a place where they were worth very little, to a place where they were worth a great deal.

Mr. Hamilton in reply thanked those who had taken part in the discussion. He considered himself more especially fortunate in having been criticised by Sir James Fergusson, the ex-governor of New Zealand, and by Sir Julius Vogel, the ex-prime minister. As to the table of wages and provisions, he believed that the figures were perfectly authentic. He was prepared to produce a voucher for every figure and every fact stated in the paper, and he thought he had throughout been studiously moderate in the statements he had advanced. With reference to the value of an immigrant, it would depend very much upon the demand for labour in the place page 43 to which he emigrated. At one time a favourite subject for discussion was, "What are we to do with our surplus population?" It was then thought to be rather a relief that a man should emigrate than that he should stop at home. This must necessarily be the case even now, because when an emigrant from this country goes to one of the colonies or to the United States, he not only lessens the competition in the labour market at home, but he increases the demand for labour at home, by his consumption of the productions of the mother country. With regard to the valuation of an immigrant, he should like very much, if he had leisure, to work it out properly; but it had been suggested to him that the proper way to estimate the value of an immigrant into a country, would be to add to the wages of the labourer, the profit derived from the same by his employer, then deduct from the total the cost of his living, or rather the net value of what he consumes, and multiply the result by the probabilities of life. There were, however, a variety of circumstances to be taken into account. It would be seen from the appendix, that wages differed very much according to the nature of a man's employment. It was a complex question, and he doubted if it could be arrived at with scientific accuracy. There would be one result in New Zealand, another in New South Wales, and another in the United States. With regard to the railways, it was unfair, as Sir James Fergusson had said, to test the earnings of a railway which existed only in a fragmentary condition. There was not, as yet, in New Zealand a through line. On the portions of lines which had been opened for traffic the earnings had been 445,000l., which deducting the cost of working, was stated officially to have yielded 3 per cent, upon the cost of the mileage opened. That, he considered, was a very promising result, and as the railways were made with a proper regard to economy, say upon the 3 feet 6 inches gauge, and cost about 6,000l., a-mile, he had not the slightest doubt that the railways would return the interest upon the cost of their production in a few years. He was very much obliged for the kind manner in which his paper had been received.

The President called attention to the fact that about three-fifths of the trade of New Zealand was in wool, which seemed to be the staple export. Wool growing seemed to have attained a high degree of perfection, and this no doubt would be the principal cause of the future prosperity of the colony.