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Phil Spector Talks About Today's Rock

The following interview was lifted from Rolling Stone. We don't care. You'd have to do it, too. The gap below is intended to draw attention to the fact that this is an introduction to the article. More technical details next issue. Now read on. . .

You did some the first, hesitate to use the phrase, 'message' songs. Like Spanish Harlem, What was the reaction of the record industry at that time to that kind of thing?

That record was a monster. The Drifters. . . well, that was to be the follow-up to Save the Last Dance for Me, and then Ben E. King decided that he'd been screwed, and wanted to go on his own. And then he chose that song, which drove me crazy, I said "You can't go out with that song, 'cause that's gotta be done by the Drifters or it'll never get played."

I had been in New York, I was born there and had lived out here California a great deal of the time. I went back there and I wanted to do Spanish Harlem. It really meant exactly what it said . . . That song had a lot of meaning to me and is still applicable today. It turned out to be a very very valuable copyright with all kinds of records resulting from it. They've, offered all kinds of money for the copyright.

I think the record industry just accepted it. I don't think they knew it was a message or it wasn't a message. I don't think they knew anything. I think it was just there, but I don't think anyone really thought it was a hit; nobody did. Nobody really understood it at first, then it started to grow on people and it made sense. I don't know. I love it and it says a lot for me. Did you know it was Lenny Bruce's favorite song?

Of the records that you've been involved with, and you've done, which do you like the most?

Well, in the beginning I made a lot of records that I didn't put names on and nobody knows about and it's better that way. But I did it because people in the industry somehow found out, and I needed the bread or whatever it was, and some of those records I can't give titles on, but I'm very proud of one of them. But of those that you know of, I would imagine Be My Baby and Lovin' Feelin are the most satisfying. River Deep is a satisfying record.

I mean I could tell you how Lovin' Feelin was made. I could tell you I'm the greatest fuckin' record producer that ever lived and that I'll eat up all these cats in the studio if they want to put their mouths right there and their money right there.

If I say Bob Crewe is not good, it puts more pressure on me, like to come out and really kill everybody with another River Deep, which I really don't want to do. He's A Rebel it's fine; the Da Do Ron Ron is fine. I'm not interested in knocking everybody's brain 'cause I'll always make a good record and it'll be better than all that shit out there today.

'Cause they really don't know how to record. They don't know anything about depth, about sound, about technique, about slowing down. One company does know something: that's Motown. They know how to master a record. You put on a Motown record and it jumps at you. That's one thing among many they know how to do for sure. I know how they're doing it, but it's their bag. But a lot of their records are not mastered for the record player, they're mastered for the radio which is a whole different thing.

So the more things you come out and you say—the more antagonistic you are, the more hostile you are—the more is expected of you.

So when you put out something, a lot of people think. Are you ashamed?" Not ashamed, but like that Da Do Ron Ron thing. Da Do Ron Ron was where I was at that time, just like Yellow Submarine was where the Beatles were; I'm glad people remember those things .... because if people didn't know where I was, then I would be nothin'. It's like when somebody dies—all the people do is yell "He died, he died." I yell "He lived." A hell of a lot more important than the fact that he's dead, is the fact that he lived.

What are you gonna do with the stuff you're workin' on now? How does that differ from the last work you did with like and Tina Turner?

Don't know. I will go in many directions—some experimental—some not. Today River Deep—Mountain High could be a number one record. I think when it came out, it was just like my farewell. I was just sayin' goodbye, and I just wanted to go crazy, you know, for a few minutes—four minutes on wax, that's all it was. I loved it, and I enjoyed making it, but I didn't really think there was anything for the public. . . nobody had really gotten into it enough yet; it really hadn't exploded the way it's exploding today with all the sounds and they're really freaking out with the electronical stuff. Today River Deep would probably be a very important sales record. When I made it, it couldn't be—so. I don't know. I got what I wanted out of it.

You see, I don't have a sound, a Phil Spector sound—I have a style, and my style is just a particular way of making records—as opposed to Lou Adler or any of the other record producers who follow the artist's style. I create a style and call it a sound or a style; I call it a style because it's a way of doing it.

My style is that I know things about recording that other people just don't know. It's simple and clear, and it's easy for me to make hits. I think the River Deep LP would be a nice way to start off because it's a record that Tina deserves to be heard on—she was sensational on that record. A record that was number in England deserves to be number one in America. If so many people are doing the song today, it means it's ready.

What do you think about music now? Rock and roll music obviously has this tremendous thing with young people.

What tires me in this business today is that I'm tired really of hearing somebody's dreams and somebody's experiences. I would like to hear a little bit more of ... I mean the Beatles combined it; and they do it well—their experiences, their love and their feelings. I don't know if they lived Yesterday but I know they wrote it.

Now I'm getting a little tired of hearing about, you know, everybody's emotional problems. I mean, it's too wavy. Like watching a three or four hour movie. I'm getting so fed up with it. No concept of melody—just goes on and on with the lyric, and on and on with the lyric. They're making it a fad. If it had more music it would last, but it can't last this way.

I mean country and western is evident of that because it's lived so long by being so obvious. The old tunes have lived so long because they're obvious. I mean All the Thing You Are and all the great songs you've heard were obvious in their way. Everybody went to a minor seventh in the bridge. I mean it was standard. You started out in a major seventh chord and you went

to the minor seven of the fourth and that was it, and you wrote a great song. So they had their formula and we have ours today, but they are ruining the formula.

They are going to really kill the music if they keep it up, because they're not writing songs any more. They are only writing ideas. They don't really care about repetition. They don't care about a hook or melody. And I know the Beatles do. I mean Lady Madonna was a hit song. They didn't write that for an emotional experience and you don't have to put things into those songs—they're right there—blah. That Ooh bla dee, ooh bla da... I mean that's a hit song. Ten years ago that was a smash. I mean "life goes on". We must have more songs.

The Beatles have a fantastic feel for the market in addition to everything else.

That's commercialism; that's what is not existing in today's music. That's the shuck that I think is going on whereby everybody is susceptible to being fooled so much that, and they jive so much that you see these people in music don't realize that they are really forming the tastes of the young people of America. If they keep going in that direction they're going to bore themselves out of existence. It's going to get boring.

What artist do you really feel has not been recorded right that you'd like to record?

Bob Dylan.

How would you record him?

I'd do a Dylan opera with him. I'd produce him. You see he's never been produced. He's always gone into the studio on the strength of his lyrics, and they have sold enough records to cover up everything—all the honesty of this records. But he's never really made a production. He doesn't really have to.

His favorite song is Like a Rolling Stone and it stands to reason because that's his grooviest song, as far as songs go. It may not be his grooviest message. It may not be the greatest thing he ever wrote, but I can see why he gets the most satisfaction out of it because re-writing La Bamba chord changes is always a lot of fun and any time you can make a Number One record and rewrite those kind of changes, it is very satisfying.

I would like him to just say something that could live recording-wise for ever. I would have enjoyed recording John Wesley Harding in its own way. He doesn't really have the time nor do any of his producers necessarily have the ambition or talent to really overrule him or debate with him. I would imagine with Albert Grossman there is a situation of business control just like it would be with Elvis Presley and Colonel Parker. Assume that there is no control, then somebody should be much more forceful. Maybe nobody has the guts, balls or the ambition to get in there, but there is no reason unless Dylan didn't want it. But there is a way he could have been made to want it.

There is no reason why Dylan can't be recorded in a very certain way and a very beautiful way where you can just sit back and say "wow" about everything—not just him and the song—just everything.

How would you have done John Wesley Harding?

There is a way to do it. He's so great on it and he is so honest that it's just like going into the studio with twelve of Steven Foster's songs. There's so much you can do. There is so much you can do with Dylan; he gives you so much to work with. That's probably why he sells so many records without trying so very hard in the studio.

It's also probably why the Beatles . . . well it's obvious that Paul McCartney and John Lennon may be the greatest rock and roll singers that we've ever had. They may be the greatest singers of the last ten years—they really may be! I mean there is a reason for the Beatles other than the fact that they're like Rogers and Hart and Hammerstein, Cershwin and all of 'em, They are great, great singers. They can do anything with their voices.

So to pat them on the back doesn't mean anything. It's really from the great background they had—of digging so much all their lives—that not only did they get that great gift of writing, but they have the great talent of singing; which is really where it's at. When you can get in and sing Rocky Racoon that way, you know that he knows how to sing better than anybody else around, because he can switch right into Yesterday They've got a great git nd for me its much more than just sayin' "the Beatles, the Beatles."

I would like to record them a certain way because again, other than what they do themselves—there's nobody. I don't know how influential their producer is, and I am sure they have a great deal of respect for him and he's the fifth Beatle and all that, but I don't think he thinks the way I would think. Their ideas are so overpowering that you just sort of just go along with them and you're gonna end up with somethin' groovy, I don't think it was necessarily his idea to put King Lear on the end of that one record. Which did or did not have to be in the record.

I think Mick Jagger could be a lot of fun to record. It's not just the big artists. I think Janis Joplin leaves a lot to be desired recording-wise. How well she can sing when she's way up front—I don't know. How well she would sing under different circumstances I don't know.

But the one that really would be the most satisfying probably would be Dylan because I could communicate with him and justify what he really wants to say—no matter what it is—musically, which is something that you don't see often happening today.

Many of the artists today just sing, they don't really interpret anything. I mean the Doors don't interpret. They're not interpreters of music. They sing ideas. The Beach Boys have always sung ideas—they've never been interpreters. The Beatles interpret; Yesterday meant something. Whereas Good Vibrations was a nice idea on which everybody sort of grooved. That's what I feel is missing in the Chambers Brothers—the interpretation.

Four or five years ago . . . Sam Cooke interpreted, I have a feeling that a lot of it is the producers' fault, and a lot of it is the . . fact that everybody is runnin' a little too scared today. Nobody really knows, nobody really knows what Janis Joplin can do except Janis Joplin, and I don't necessarily think she puts her faith in anyone or would have anyone direct her.

You were associated with the Stones when they first started. Was there any talk of you becoming their producer?

Um, yeah, but Andrew was involved at that time and he was sort of . . . they told me he tried to be like me in England. And he sort of ... I would say in all honesty that he was my publicity agent in England at that time. In other words, he called me, and said he could do publicity, and I said, well, do publicity because I don't know what it involves. He sort of had a nice affection for me as a record producer and he supposedly held me in high esteem.